Conrad Vine & Abortion ~ Is He Really Pro-Life???
In this study, we are going to take a look at what Conrad Vine teaches in regards to Abortion. I am quite confident that no Seventh Day Adventist Pastor who gave up the Sabbath would ever again have influence over Conservative, Spirit of Prophecy-loving Adventists. In fact, he would be shunned, no matter how clear he taught on the State of the Dead, the Sanctuary and Spiritualism. He would be considered dangerous….and for good reason. The more light a person has, the more dangerous they become when once they turn away from TRUTH.
As Seventh Day Adventists, we have always believed that all 10 of the Commandments are important…clearly the Bible says, “If you break one, you break them all…”. The 6th Commandment, “Thou shalt not murder…” is just as important as the 4th Commandment, “Remember the Sabbath Day to keep it holy….”
And that brings us to this discussion, regarding Conrad Vine and Abortion.
This study is based on three things ~
#1. A sermon Conrad gave called “FEMINISM, ABORTION, AND THE GOSPEL”,
#2. My own personal email conversation with Conrad and
#3. Pro-Life Andrews personal email conversation with him.
In an email to ProLife Andrew, Conrad claims, “I am absolutely pro-life and anti-abortion.” But is he? I don’t believe so. Let me try to show you, from “the horses mouth” as the old saying goes, why I believe this.
First, one more thing. People who are truly Pro-Life and Anti-Abortion believe that the life of ALL Babies comes from God, that God created them….they believe that a Baby that is the product of rape or incest is no less a human and no less loved of God than a Baby that is the product of Love, and should be given the chance to live life, just as any other Baby should be. They also believe that there is never a reason to Abort a Baby, no matter the health condition of the Mother or the Baby. The ONLY option is to do the best to save BOTH lives. Period. If that means take the Baby early, and do the best you can to save it, that is what you do. So, from this view point, let’s examine Conrad’s statements on Abortion. His statements will be in RED and my comment on his statements will be in GREEN. (The time given are all from the video linked above.)
Breakdown of the Conrad Vine Sermon
29:09
After emphasizing that an unborn baby is fully human, a gift from God, and respect for prenatal life.) “However, decisions about life must be made in the context of a fallen world and abortion is never an act of little moral consequence, THUS PRENATAL LIFE MUST NOT BE THOUGHTLESSLY DESTROYED, and it should only be performed for the most serious of reasons. Abortion is one of the tragic dilemmas of living in a world of human fallenness. The church decided as the body of Christ we cannot set hard and fast rules in this area.
How on earth do you THOUGHTFULLY DESTROY a human life???
“The church decided as the body of Christ we cannot set hard and fast rules in this area.” On much less important things, like Alcohol & Cigarettes, they take a “hard and fast” rule. How much more important to take a hard and fast rule in regards to LIFE.
29:40
“Women at times face exceptional circumstances that provide exceptional danger to their own lives or to their unborn child…sever congenital defeats so that they will not survive after birth…” There have many, many cases where Doctors were wrong on their diagnosis of the unborn Baby. The Baby that was supposed to be born with birth defects was born healthy.
29:59
“…or the pregnancy results from rape or incest.” So, is the Baby conceived in rape or incest less of a human? Does it not still have a soul to save? Since when does two wrongs (rape + abortion) or (incest + abortion) make a right??? To murder the Baby for the sin of the parents doesn’t erase the 1st sin, it just adds a 2nd sin to be repented of. What did that Baby do that justifies the taking of its’ life???
30:02
“There are circumstances because we live in a fallen world where we understand why abortion can be the lesser of two evils. The final decision on whether to terminate the pregnancy, according to our world church, should not be made by the church in business meeting or board meeting, it should not be made by your sabbath school class or by the pastor, it should be made by the mother, aided by in her decision by a loving family that surround her and wish for the best for the child and for the mother.“
HOW is DEATH by Abortion the “lesser of two evils”??? The 1st “evil” – rape or incest – has already been committed! How is choosing Abortion bettering that 1st choice? Apparently, Conrad has not interviewed very many people whose mother tried to abort them or considered aborting them…I have talked two and both of them are very thankful that they were not aborted! They are so thankful to be ALIVE and to have LIFE! “the lesser of two evils”???
31:10
(On a slide—“4th principle”—and spoken) “Valuable as it is, human life is not the only or ultimate concern. Self-sacrifice in devotion to God and His principles may take precedence over life itself.” Why does he say “Self-sacrifice…may take precedence over life itself.”? What is he saying here? When does “self-sacrifice in devotion to God” have anything to do with a mother aborting her Baby?
32:24
(slide—”9th principle”) “God gives humanity the freedom of choice, even if it leads to abuse and tragic consequences.” Yes, God does give humans freedom of choice. But what does that have to do with ANYTHING??? We have laws that protect life. People have the freedom to break those laws, and still suffer the consequences. We are not robots. If someone murders another person, they go to jail and suffer whatever consequences the court deems as fair. And so it should be for those who murder their Babies yet in the womb.
There are “hard and fast” laws to punish people who rape people, who kill people, who steal from people. There are hard and fast laws on many things and it’s right that those laws are there. It’s just as right that there should be “hard and fast” laws to protect the most helpless and innocent amongst us. How Conrad Vine and the Church can say otherwise, is beyond me.
33:12
(slide—“11th principle) “Decisions about human life from its beginning to its end are best made within the context of healthy family relationships with the support of the faith community.”… “These are not easy decisions to make.” That sounds real nice…but it’s not REALITY. If the pregnant woman was in the context of a “healthy family” relationship, abortion wouldn’t be an option. And any “faith community” that supports abortion as an option is not Biblical.
35:20
“Nobody wins in an abortion, least of all the woman.” 35:47—“Nobody wins in an abortion, least of all the women themselves.” Really??? The woman, the mother is the biggest loser??? The mother is still alive, the mother can ask God to forgive her, and He will. The mother can go on and make a success out of her life. The Baby, the innocent Baby, is gone, forever. Lost. How can he say that the mother is the biggest loser? Does he not consider that this little life that was snuffed out with Abortion is truly the biggest loser????
38 to 40 Minute Mark
Shares Jeremiah 31:15-17 and Child Guidance 565, 566—applies them to abortion. This is very dangerous and unfounded reasoning. There is absolutely NOTHING in the Bible or the Spirit of Prophecy that in any way, shape or form encourage the thought that innocent babies who were aborted will be taken to Heaven. Those passages are talking about the children of believers, who were taken in sickness or accidents, not children who are aborted. He is completely taking the Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy out of context to try to turn a horrible thing into a positive thing.
“Perhaps the single largest group when we get to heaven will be aborted children.” Nice sounding words but totally unfounded.
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Comments from Conrad to Tammy Via Emails
{Email from Conrad Vine to Tammy} “Thanks for reaching out, and for keeping this sermon controversial. The video by Pro-Life Andrew was an egregious and deliberate misrepresentation of the SDA Church’s voted stance on abortion. The 2019 Year-End Meeting voted an updated position on abortion that I am generally in harmony with.” So, as you can see, he says he is in harmony with the Pro-Choice “updated position on abortion” that the SDA Church takes today, all the while, claiming to be Pro-Life.
Did you ever hear him raise his voice against the previous position that the church had for 50+ years that far more openly supported abortion? I never did. This 2019 “updated position” is really no better than the previous one…it’s just worded differently, making it harder to discern that the church is really Pro-Choice. It muddies the waters and is more deceptive, that is all…and Conrad is in harmony with and supportive of it.
{Email from Conrad Vine to Tammy} “We cannot compel obedience to the Law of God, e.g. we cannot compel our understanding of Sabbath observance or compel people to tell the whole truth with no shade of falsehood, and likewise we can only appeal but cannot compel people to uphold and honor the 6thCommandment.” You cannot force people to obey, but you can have church rules and if they don’t want to live by those rules, they cannot be members of the Church. But this argument goes way beyond the Church…it comes down to ~ is it right to make laws to stop abortion? Conrad Vine doesn’t think so. You will see that in the comments below to Pro-Life Andrew.
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The 5 Statements Below Are Exact Quotes
From Conrad Vine to Pro-Life Andrew In Emails ~
- “I am not willing to use force to compel obedience in terms of the Decalogue because God is not willing to use force to compel obedience to the Decalogue.” January 2, 2019. That’s not true. It’s certainly not true in the Old Testament. Throughout the Old Testament people were punished for breaking His laws. And in the New Testament (Romans 13) God does that through the Government. I’m sure he believes in punishing those who steal and commit murder. He should carry that reasoning through with those who carry out abortions.
- “abortion is a breaking of the 6th Commandment, but God does not force compliance to the Decalogue.” January 2, 2019. If that is true, then should we do away with laws against Murder? Absolutely not! No one believes that! But when it comes to an unborn Baby, they put that Baby in a different class.
- “We MUST leave it to the conscience of the woman.” What a cop-out! Should it be left “to the conscience of the woman” to decide whether or not she wants to murder her 1 or 2 year old child??? If not, why not? What is the difference??? “Leave it to the conscience of the woman”, that is language Pro-Choice supporters use. Those that use that phrase are on the side of Pro-Choice, not Pro-Life.
- “It is not a decision that you or I OR THE GOVERNMENT can compel.” January 2, 2019. It absolutely IS a decision that the Government SHOULD compel! Ellen White did all she could to compel people in her day to stop using liquor and to shut down the liquor industry. Isn’t LIFE even more important than drinking alcohol.
- “I am absolutely pro-life and anti-abortion.” True Pro-Life and Anti-Abortion supporters support the LIFE of the BABY, not the CHOICE of the mother! Conrad puts the mother’s CHOICE above the LIFE of the Baby.
Conclusion
Conrad Vine is a very intelligent person, far too intelligent to be confused on this issue. He’s not confused. He has plainly taken his stand on the WRONG SIDE, the side of CHOICE over LIFE, and done his best to make it APPEAR that he is really Pro-Life and Anti-Abortion. God is not using any Seventh Day Adventist Pastor who stands on the side of CHOICE. If they don’t have enough discernment and backbone to stand for LIFE, they are not worth listening to. Conrad Vine has been a Pastor for many years in the Church and I’ve never once heard him raise his voice against the abortions that have been taking place within SDA hospitals for 50 years. Anyone who is truly Pro-Life and knows about it, would have been raising their voice.
For other articles on the subject of Abortion and how it relates to Adventism, check out this link ~
